The following is a transcript of Episode 32 of Championing Justice. You can listen to the full episode here, or watch it on YouTube.
Darl:
Welcome to the Championing Justice podcast. My name is Darl Champion. I'm the owner of The Champion Firm. We're a personal injury law firm just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. Today we have Alice Lovchik (Al-ee-see Love-chick) joining us as our guest.
And I also have a co-host, our Marketing Director here at The Champion Firm, Leticia Alves. Leticia, this is her first episode as a co-host. And so she's going to join us because Leticia is from Brazil, just like Alice.
So we're going to be talking about Alice's background growing up in Brazil, going to law school in Brazil, becoming a trial lawyer in Houston, Texas. And also an interesting part of her background is she was the lead singer of a heavy metal band. So let's hop right into it, Alice.
So you are in Brazil right now.
Alice:
I am.
Darl:
And thank you for joining us on vacation.
Alice:
Of course.
Leticia:
And right after her birthday, which was this week.
Darl:
Happy birthday.
Leticia:
Yes.
Alice:
Thank you.
Darl:
So my understanding from your LinkedIn profile is your dad was actually a judge in Brazil.
Alice:
Yeah. So my dad, he was a federal labor judge with a labor court in Salvador, Bahia. And now he's retired, but he was a judge for many, many years presiding over federal labor courts either in Salvador and also in the interior in rural areas of Bahia, my state.
Darl:
Is that what inspired you to go to law school?
Alice:
No. Well, sort of, because that wasn't the main factor that determined me to go to law school.
The main thing was my mom, believe it or not, and she does not have a legal background. I always admire my dad for being a judge, but I decided that I never wanted to be a lawyer early on. So I went to political science college in Bahia for the Federal University of Bahia.
And I did one semester. And as I was studying, my mom was like, "At best when you graduate, you can be a professor. You're not going to make a living being a professor in this country. So I'm going to sign you up for the LSAT so you can go to law school and you're going to give it a try. And if you don't like it, you drop out. That's fine." And I'm like, "I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. " And she signed me up and she's like, "The test is today. Go take the test."
So I took the test for the LSAT. I scored third place in my whole category. And I started doing both political science and law school at the same time for one semester. And I really fell in love with law in my first semester of law school and I dropped out political science and then I just became a law student.
Darl:
So when you were going to law school in Brazil, was the long-term plan to come to the United States and be a lawyer or were you planning to practice law in Brazil?
Alice:
I never thought I would be living in the US, to be honest with you. That was never my plan. In fact, I never, because I have family that my aunt married an American citizen and she immigrated to the US and she lived for a long time in the US.
So I had the opportunity to live there because I have family there, but I always told them, I would never live in the US. Awful country. Never live there. And it was never the plan to practice law in the US. At best, I would say my plan was visit just to get to know, but not really live and reside in the US.
So my plan was graduate from law school in Brazil become a lawyer and earn my five years as a lawyer so I could take a test to become a judge because I wanted to be a judge like my dad.
That was my plan.
Darl:
Gotcha. So what changed?
Alice:
Life got in the way. So in December 2009, my mom had been living in the US for a decade and she was like, "Come visit, get to know the country and se for yourself how it is to how is life in the US." And I was like, "Okay, I'll go visit you." And then I went to the US to visit my mom while I was on vacation from law school, summer break from law school in Brazil. And I got to the US in December 2009.
And fast-forward January 2010, I went to a concert in Houston. I was in Houston visiting my mom, went to a concert at a venue that was a very underground. I always liked rock, so I wanted to see rock concerts in Houston. And I was just hanging out with my cousin.
And then somehow this guy bumps into me and he starts talking to me. I'm like, "I don't understand what you're saying because my English was very limited." And we connected and this is now my husband of 16 years. And that's why at the end of the day, I immigrated to the US because I met him. We continued dating long distance. And then when I finished law school in Brazil, I came to visit him and we decided to get married and I stayed.
Darl:
The story is old as time.
Alice:
I know. Yeah. So I would never think I would marry an American man. I would never think, number one, I never thought I would get married because I never wanted to get married in my life, let alone an American man.
Darl:
I'm going to try not to be offended by this.
Alice:
No, I'm going to be very honest. He knows that. American men are not my type physically.
Darl:
Okay.
Alice:
But...
Darl:
Certainly your husband is.
Alice:
No, but I fell in love with him. Love doesn't have a type.
Darl:
Despite his physical features.
Alice:
Yes, exactly.
Darl:
Well, very good. So one of the things that I noticed about your background is you're really into rock music.
And when did this kind of journey into joining bands or being the lead singer of heavy metal bands, when did that start? Was that before law school, after law school?
Alice:
It was way before law school. It was actually in high school, my last year of high school. I was a very introverted and shy girl in high school. You probably know you grew up, there's a popularity contest in high school, right?
And there are a lot of girls in my high school that were charming and pretty and cool kids. I was the opposite. So I wouldn't hang out with the girls back then because I felt very insecure. So I would hang out with the boys in my high school and I made friends with the guys in high school. And those guys that I made friends with, Fernando, Igor, Cesar, they all listened to rock and metal.
And then we would talk about music and they would introduce me to that. And I was like, "Oh, this is really cool." And I remember when I first heard Sepultura, which is a very famous trash metal band that it's well known, the whole world, it's from Minas Gerais in Brazil.
When I heard that and I heard the vocals, I was like, "This is so cool. I want to do that. I want to sing like that." And then what I did was I was finishing high school. I had a break between high school and study for college to get into college.
I would listen to the music and I would try to mimic the vocals. And my poor mom, she probably was going crazy in our apartment, our tiny apartment because I would like scream, scream, scream, scream, scream, until I finally figured out how to sing go through.
And then when I felt confident, I was like, "Okay, now I'm going to start a band. I want to be a lead singer of a band." And I started my first band, which was a punk rock new metal band called Sujitus La Plabi. And that was my first band ever. I was 19 years old and we would play this underground places in Salvador with other local bands.
And then I became known in the rock metal scene in Salvador. And then the band ended. And then fast-forward a couple years later, there was this band, which was a very famous death metal band in the national scene called Tharsis. And they were auditioning for vocalist.
And those guys were older. I was 19 years old. They were in their 30s or late 20s, mid early 30s. So very talented professional musicians. And they were like, "We're auditioning." So I'm like, "I want to audition." They're like, "Okay, this girl, 19-year-old girl wants to audition."
And then I showed up for the audition wearing a pink shirt. They were all metal heads wearing black and I'm in a pink strawberry shirt, shortcake shirt. And then I showed up and then they're like, "Okay, you need to sing this song," which is a song called Enemy Within by Arch Enemy, which had a female vocalist. And I sang it.
They were like, "Oh, holy moly, she's amazing. That's it. We don't need to audition anyone else. This is it."
Darl:
That's fantastic.
Alice:
Yeah. From that point forward, that's when I became a little legend in Salvador because I was the first female vocalist that sang brutal vocals. There are a lot of female vocalists in Salvador, but really no one that sang with vocals like I had.
Darl:
And so when you came to the US, did you continue with the band?
Alice:
So I left the band. When I immigrated to the US, I left the band in Salvador and I moved to the US. And then there was a period in my life that I was adapting to the life.
So my first year, I didn't really play in a band. I was focused on learning English and starting working to build my independence because I was very relying a lot on my husband. I didn't really speak very much English and all of that. And during the first six months of my life in the US, I couldn't work because I was waiting on my green card. So I just focused on studying English.
It was very hard for me because I didn't have any friends. I didn't know anybody here other than my family and my husband. But then after my first year in the US when I was working and more comfortable with English, I decided that I wanted to create a band in the US. So I started reaching out to people on Facebook groups of metal groups in Houston.
And I found this guitar player from New York that had just moved to Houston, Tom. And he was like, "I played death metal and I want to form a band too." So we started jamming. And then my husband had a friend, Nate, that was a drummer. So we recruited him and then we couldn't find a bass player. So I asked my husband if he would play bass in the band. And that's when Insolvent was formed, which was my first band in the US with my husband, Tom, and Nate.
And we played for several years together. It was very nice. We played all over Texas, but then Tom moved back to New York so the band ended. And then after that I had multiple bands.
One of the bands called Tantalum was a very well-known band in the whole world. We played a big grind core festival in Czech Republic called Obscene Extreme, which is if you play grind core or extreme metal and you play in the festival, it's because you were one of the top bands.
Darl:
What's the name of the band?
Alice:
Tantalum.
Darl:
How do you spell that?
Alice:
Like the metal, Tantalum, T-A-N-T-A-L-U-M.
Darl:
Got it. Okay. Okay. I got to look them up here.
Leticia:
Go listen to it.
Alice:
So we played that festival and it was amazing. It was one of the best experiences of my life because I played in a big stage for a crowd, a big crowd. And it was very nice, one of the best experiences of my life.
I would say to you that being on stage and being in trial gave me the same emotions and the same experience; that intensity of being in trial and being on stage is just the same thing for me. I really love that. I feel like I'm a trial junkie and a stage junkie because I love being trial and I love being stage.
Darl:
So this introverted high school girl is now singing heavy metal and trying a lot of cases.
Alice:
Right. I am still an introverted. I don't know what happened. I am. I am a very introverted. Who knows me personally, people that know me personally in my day-to-day, my friends, my family, they know that I am a listener.
I'm more of a listener than a talker. I'm more in the background listening, observing kind of thing as opposed to wanting to be on the spotlight. It just happened that those two things that I love in my life make me be in the center of the spotlight. But in reality, I'm still the introvert.
Darl:
So I have a video here of Tantalum playing. This is awesome.
Leticia:
Wow.
Darl:
So you're so soft-spoken. But then on that it's like, holy cow.
Alice:
Thank you. I've been doing this for 22 years.
Darl:
It's amazing that you can make your voice do that.
Alice:
Thank you. Yeah, it's a lot of work actually. It's a whole technique behind it because you have to breathe right and sing from your core, not from your throat so you don't hurt yourself.
Darl:
I can imagine.
You're in Brazil, you come to the US. What's the process to become a lawyer like if you have a law degree in Brazil and coming to the US?
Alice:
Well, so the process before 2014, 2015 was you go to law school all over again.
I have my JD from Brazil, but I never took the bar exam in Brazil because I immigrated to the US immediately and I never took the time. This is actually something that I plan on doing because I want to be licensed in Brazil as well. But not right now because I have other things in mind.
But anyways, I have my JD from Brazil, but because I don't have a license from Brazil, the process to become licensed in Texas was either go to law school all over again. So I decided that I didn't want to do that so I became a paralegal in the US. I started working as a paralegal.
Fast-forward 2014, U of H came up with a master's program for foreign lawyers where you do a master's in either foreign scholars, energy, tax, immigration. And then after your master's that lasted one year, you could sit for the bar exam.
So immediately when that came up, I signed up and did my master's in foreign scholars, which is a master's in law for foreign lawyers, specifically for foreign lawyers to get grounded on US subjects, law subjects.
So I did my master's at U of H and I graduated in 2016. But because I wasn't licensed in Brazil, I couldn't sit for the Texas bar exam. So the only way around it is New York and California are the only states in the US that allowed foreign JDs that don't have a license in their home country to sit for their bar exam. So I had to pick one.
And between California and New York, in my mind, I thought New York was easier to pass. So I sat for the New York bar exam and I passed. And then after I became licensed in New York, the following year I sat for the Texas bar exam because I had my license in New York, which met the requirement that Texas had for lawyers.
And I passed and now I'm double licensed in Texas and New York. I really don't practice in New York. My practice is all in Texas. So that was the process for me. It was one year of going to law school to earn my master's in law and then sitting for the bar exams.
Darl:
So when did personal injury become something that you were interested in?
Alice:
In the very beginning, it wasn't really an interest that I had. It was the only option. So at that point, back in 2011 when I got my green card and I was able to work in the US, I started looking for jobs in law firms. But the problem was my English was very limited and I couldn't really communicate with anyone very well. So I needed to find a job that would allow me to work, but would allow me to not be so much communicating with people.
So Craigslist, I found an ad on Craigslist for a job in a law firm as a file clerk, which all you had to do is file documents. Read and file documents. I was very good at reading in English at that point. So I applied for the job and I was making $10 an hour. And I worked at that firm, which is my dear friend to this date. And I'll never forget because he gave me my first job in the US.
His name is Rick Plezia. He's not practicing anymore, but he was a very board certified Texas trial lawyer, very talented. And I worked for him as a file clerk for a whole year. And then at that time I was reading a lot of pleadings, a lot of discovery, a lot of trial, pretrial documents and becoming familiar with the legal terminology and with the process of personal injury in the US.
So after a whole year doing filework, he decided that it was like, "You're ready to become a legal assistant. You're going to start answering the phone. Even if you don't speak English very well, I don't care, you're going to learn. You're going to learn.That's the only way you can learn." So he gave me the opportunity to interact with clients, defense counsel, and then I became very comfortable in speaking English. And then I became very comfortable in speaking Spanish too because we had a lot of Spanish speaker clients.
And then my second year working with him, he promoted to be his personal assistant. So I became his personal assistant. And at that point in my second year, I was already very fluent in English, fluent in Spanish, speaking, doing everything in the law firm from intake all the way to settlement disbursement. I was doing everything for him.
So with Rick, that's when I learned really what a law firm, working in a law firm in the US looks like. And I feel like the experience that I had working as a paralegal gave me a unique perspective that now if I don't have a paralegal available for me, I can do everything by myself because I know how to prepare a file, how to prepare a trial binder, how to prepare, call my client and schedule a meeting. I know how to handle those things.
Those mundane tasks that we all lawyers take for granted, that we rely heavily on paralegals. So that gave me an appreciation for paralegals and knowledge that not all lawyers have.
Darl:
When did you start trying a lot of cases? I mean, it seems like on LinkedIn when I'm looking at your posts, you're in trial every week, which I think is fantastic.
When did you start really getting into the trial work specifically?
Alice:
So it all started when I was actually practicing immigration at Catholic Charities of Houston and I started trying immigration cases. At that point, I had tried two personal injury cases when I was still doing personal injury. And then I switched to immigration too because before I settled for good for personal injury, I wanted to try immigration law because of me as an immigrant, I wanted to see what it's like to represent other immigrants.
So I tried a lot of immigration cases in federal immigration court, but those are bench trials. So it's a little bit different than personal injury because you're trying to a jury, but it gave me the experience of trying cases or doing direct examination of witnesses. You really don't do cross-examination in immigration court. You direct of your client, of clients supporting witnesses and all of that.
And then fast-forward, when I saw that the administration was going to change with the new presidency, I decided that it was time for me to go back to personal injury.
So the reason why I tried so many cases now that I've been with Javier, I went back to Javier Marcos. I liked immigration, going back to Javier Marcos. I have a volume of cases. I have 105 cases. And what happens is when you have 105 cases, you have a lot of trial settings that are like back to back. So I've tried a total in my whole career, nine years of practice, 27 cases.
Darl:
That's a lot.
Alice:
Yeah. And I have a lot of trial settings coming up. So that's the reason why I'm in trial all the time because I have a lot of cases and a lot of trial settings back to back.
So I'm always in trial and I really like it. I love it. It's the reason why I go to work every day. I love helping people. I love being in the courtroom, meeting people, meeting jurors and talking to people and getting to know people. I'm very people driven, helping people and also meeting people and getting to know people through things that are very important to me.
I don't see myself doing anything else in my career. I realize that trial practice is not for everyone and that's okay. Not everybody needs to be a trial lawyer. There are a lot of corporate lawyers and lawyers that are very important, do important work too. But I think for me, trial practice, being in the courthouse, it's what drives me. I love being in court and arguing and that's where I learn. I get to know people.
Darl:
Well, you like the stage, right? I mean, I know you talked about you being an introvert, but it probably fits in with that kind of rush that you get from being on stage.
Alice:
Yeah, it's the rush. And then also I think I've been reflecting about that. I think the fact that I really need the connection with people, that's one of the things that drives me too. And that's one of the things that I believe is one of the reasons why I am in trial practice because even if you're an introvert, you can still be a people person. And if you're not a people person, then it's very hard for you to be a trial lawyer because that's all you do.
You interact with people all the time when you're doing voir dire, when you're doing opening and conveying your client's case, you need to be able to connect. And I think that's what makes a good trial lawyer in my opinion, and disclaimer, I've only been practicing for nine years. I have a lot to learn. But what I notice is I know a lot of trial lawyers that know the law very well. They're very technical and they know their case very well, but they have a hard time connecting with people and conveying things to people.
And I would take somebody that knows how to connect with people but doesn't have the legal background a hundred times over somebody that knows the law very well, but doesn't have the ability to connect with people.
Darl:
So who are some of your biggest inspirations? Maybe people that are successful trial lawyers that maybe publish trial guides or books that you've read and adopted some of their techniques. Anything like that?
Alice:
Yeah. Some people are no longer here that I really admire and I had the opportunity. So Darrell Barger was my former boss. He gave me my first job as a lawyer, not as a paralegal, as a lawyer in the US. And I had the honor and the fortune to be his associate. He did insurance defense. He wasn't a plaintiff's lawyer.
Darrell tried over 450 cases in his career. He was an amazing trial lawyer. He passed away, but he's a legend because he was a wonderful human being. He was loved by plaintiff's lawyers because they knew that if he was in the case, it's because the case had problems, but they knew all plaintiff's lawyers knew that they would had a bigger chance to settle the case for good value because that's how Darrell was.
He was like, "I acknowledge the problem that the case had. This is what I think you all should pay. And if you don't pay, yes, I am the best trial lawyer in town, but I'm not going to make a miracle because the case is awful." And he would tell that to the carriers and the carriers will listen to him and they would come up with good offers.
So he was very well respected and that's how I learned, I just never tried a case with him. I always observed him try cases. I was his associate doing the groundwork and he would try the case.
Darl:
That's fantastic.
Alice:
So I learned a lot from him. Another good lawyer that I never worked with, but I read books and I learned a lot: Jim Perdue Sr. He wrote a very good book. He's a Houston trial lawyer. He's retired now. It's called Who Will Speak for the Victim?, which I know a lot of people --
Darl:
I've heard of that book.
Alice:
Yeah, it's a very good book. I totally recommend. I found a used copy and I'm reading now right now as I'm on vacation for the second time. It's a very good book because it teaches lawyers how to be victim-centered, not reptile centered. I don't practice reptile. I don't criticize who does, but it's just not for me. It's not who I am.
Darl:
Yeah.
Alice:
I am more victim centered and I've always been like that. And when I found recently that book, I was like, oh my gosh, this is all I believe in.
Rick Friedman is a trial lawyer. He's from Alaska.
Darl:
Rules of the Road.
Alice:
Rules of the Road.
Darl:
Yeah. He's fantastic.
Alice:
He's a very good, and he's a very introvert person. He's the awkward kid on the block and he's an amazing trial lawyer.
Darl:
I love his books. I mean, Rules of the Road is kind of like a foundational book. And you talked about reptile and I've read the book. I don't follow it either. It's not my thing. And part of the reason it's not my thing is it's so rigid. It's like, you got to do this, you got to say it this way.
And I think that trials, every case is different and every trial's different, but I love Rick Friedman. I think the Rules of the Road kind of establishes some of the stuff that's kind of the psychological foundation of Reptile, which is you have these safety rules and they exist for a reason and if they're not followed, something bad can happen.
Alice, and this is something I'd love for you and Leticia to chime in about. How's personal injury in Brazil? How is it different? Does it even exist in Brazil?
Alice:
It exists, but it's bad. It's really, okay, so you have to understand the context: There are no civil jury trials in Brazil. They're all bench trials. So you are trying a case to a judge.
So the biggest problem with that is, and that's how I love American law because you get your peers from your own community deciding a case. I think this is amazing. I think a judge himself, somebody, I know that a judge is supposed to know the laws and all of that, but just giving that power for somebody to decide all cases I think is too much.
And in addition to that, because there are no civil jury trials, there is a huge backlog. Because imagine a judge has thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of cases to decide in a year, in a given year. So that drives a lot of settlements, out of court settlements.
They're not in the best interest of the parties, but because they don't want to wait 10 years for a judgment, they would rather settle cheap just to get some money out of it.
Darl:
Yeah. But, I mean, is there mandatory car insurance for if you get in a car wreck?
Alice:
There are the seguros, the mandatory car insurance, but it's just not as high policies or it's not the same as we have in the US. It doesn't give the same protections to the insured as you have in the US. I think we're very well-served. Even though we complain about insurance companies in the US and how they low-ball insured people or other parties, third-party claimers, they still give better protections than the insurance companies in Brazil and South American countries.
Leticia:
I would also say there are a lot of steps to ensure somebody has insurance in their car in the US. You don't see as much of that in Brazil.
Alice:
That is true. There are a lot of steps, a lot of protections and a lot of steps that you have to take to get insurance and be able to be insured.
And also in Brazil there is a lot, it's so sad to say that it pains me to say that. But there is a lot of bureaucracy with the insurance company and filing a claim and getting a claim paid. It's a lot of bureaucracy that we don't have as much in the US.
Darl:
Everything that's gone viral on social media is that bungee jumping thing in Brazil.
Leticia:
Yes.
Darl:
Have you seen that?
Alice:
Yeah, I did.
Leticia:
I think everyone has. It is horrible.
Darl:
Yeah. I assume that there's no requirement that places like that have insurance.
Alice:
No.
Darl:
Here's the thing. I mean, in the US, I'm not aware of any requirements like that. I mean, doctors, at least in Georgia, doctors aren't required to have insurance. Lawyers aren't required to have insurance. But because of the tort system, they do have it because they know the consequences.
Leticia:
Absolutely. They were also not licensed, so even there's no insurance. They're not licensed to be practicing the bungee jumping.
Darl:
Yeah. So is that something, what recourse does somebody like that have? I mean, nothing, just the criminal system?
Alice:
Just the criminal system, the criminal negligence, not so much as civil. There's just no civil remedy.
From what I saw, and I don't know much about what happened, but from what I saw, this was a very small business, like family business with no insurance, no other... They didn't really have money. I don't think the family's going to have a civil remedy for that loss, which pains me to say that.
Darl:
That's one of the things I think that people take for granted in our country. I mean, you see it even with sometimes people that report to jury duty. They don't want to be there.
And that's something that I worry about in the future because I feel like, and maybe it's like this in every country, but particularly here, that so many people have become divided. They're in their own little world on social media with people that agree with them. I was even reading an article the other day about how much more contentious jury deliberations have become.
Alice:
Yep. I actually had an experience. I was in trial and I got a no negligence verdict against my client in a rear end collision. And I had the chance to talk to two jurors after the trial was over and they told to me how contentious it was in the deliberation room for several reasons.
The one reason was the defendant in my case was an elder person. It was an elder man, white man. And they were like, "Well, we are taught that we shouldn't go after the elder, whatever, even if they make a mistake." I was taught that we have to respect elder by my grandparents. Even though I think he did something wrong, he breached his duty on the road, I'm not going to find for him because he's elder. That was one thing.
The other thing that was said was like, "She speaks Spanish, therefore I don't think she had a license." But she did have a license. That was the whole point. But we didn't talk about driver's license in the trial. So they just assumed that my client, because she was Spanish speaker, she didn't have a driver's license and she shouldn't be in the road that day.
But the juror said that was not the main reason. The main reason was we all make mistakes in traffic and we all been in crashes before and some of us haven't sued anybody. And this is what's wrong with the civil justice system. It's just we all want to file a lawsuit against each other. Accidents happen. It's just nobody's fault. It's just an accident. And that is something that I made a point now that my voir dire, I'm going to spend a lot of time talking about that because there are people that think like that.
Darl:
I saw the LinkedIn post about that and juries can do crazy things and it seemed like this is a perfect example.
Tell us what you learned from that experience and how you plan to adapt some of those lessons. So whether it's voir dire, opening, direct, cross...
Alice:
People say, "Oh, it was just an accident. Nobody's at fault." There are two groups of people: people that think that accidents are things that happen in life and nobody should be, you can't say that anybody was negligent or didn't meet the duty of care on the road.
And there are other people that say no, first it's not an accident, it's a collision, it's a crash. Accident, nobody's at fault. A crash, somebody made a mistake on the road that day that was not an honest mistake. It was because they were not being a safe driver. They were not being a reasonable and prudent person on the road that day.
And my thing now is in voir dire, I'm going to spend a lot of time. One of lessons that I learned from that trial is there's no guarantees. Even if it's a rear end collision, you cannot assume that the jury's going to find somebody negligent because there's just no guarantees at trial. And you need to spend time explaining to the jury and doing that in voir dire to single out those people that think nobody's at fault: 'We all make mistakes and that's okay. It's okay to make mistakes. We all make mistakes and we don't have to sue people.'
And then when you are doing your opening and your closing, we need to explain to the jury their role. We have to do our jobs in the cross to establish that person didn't meet the standard of care on the road. He was not a reasonable and prudent driver.
But we also need to educate the juries when we are doing closing. That's the proper way to argue the case that their role, the civil justice system in the US is there because our founders establish that people have to have a remedy, a civil remedy.
Keith Mitnik talks about that. It's not a compensation. It's to give them what was taken from them in the way of health, what they lost as far as health, as far as the enjoyment of life, as far as the medical expenses, the future, what the future's going to look like, knowing that you're going to have that crick in the neck forever that's never going to go away.
So we need to do our job and educate them that it's not about what the client's going to get, but it's what was taken from them.
Darl:
You mentioned Keith Mitnik. I'm a big Keith Mitnik fan. Love his books. I don't know if you incorporate this into your voir dire, but one of my favorite questions, and I don't think I can take credit for this, I don't remember where I heard this from, but I always ask in voir dire: Is there anybody here who if you were involved in a crash and were injured, you wouldn't bring a claim? And that always gets some people that raise their hands.
The other thing that you could do is even tailor it to your specific case. One of the most valuable questions that I have found is that question: Is there anybody here who, if you were involved in a crash, you wouldn't bring a claim? If it's a death case, is there anybody here who would not bring a claim if one of your loved ones was killed?
Another question that I asked, I had a trial where the defendant died after he was elderly. He was in his 80s and his wife as the administrator of the estate was the defendant. So not only do I have an elderly person, I have the surviving wife. But I asked the question: Is there anybody here who's worried where the money's coming from?
Alice:
That is actually a good question. I never thought about this.
Darl:
A couple hands went up and, "Okay, well in this case, I'm suing the estate. Is there anybody here who's going to say..." And that's where I try to integrate the idea of your job is to appraise damages. You're like an appraiser. It's not to worry about where the money's coming from or what the consequences are. It's to say what's the value of what was taken?
Is there anybody here who's going to have a problem with that role? And that always gets some hands going up. Of course, you never know about the stealth jurors that are trying to get on just to screw you over, but I think those are few and far between because nobody wants to waste their own time to do that.
Alice:
Yeah, I agree with you. I think those are questions... If I had to tell you what is the most important part of the trial, I would say in my humble opinion, it's voir dire. That's the most important part of the trial. That's my favorite part. I love doing voir dire.
Darl:
It's my least favorite part.
Alice:
Really?
Darl:
I hate it. I hate it so much.
Alice:
Why?
Darl:
Now, I do agree it's a very important part. I think voir dire and opening are your two most important parts. Some people like closing argument and I like closing argument, but it's like by then the jury's probably made up their mind and really all you're trying to do is arm your jurors that are on your side.
The thing I hate about voir dire is, I've got this, and I don't know how y'all do it in Texas, but we've got maybe 30 people out in the crowd. We're standing up. I've got this sheet with names. I don't know anybody's name. A bunch of people are raising their hands for different questions. I'm trying to write down who's answering what. I'm then having to ask follow-ups. And the whole process just to me is just uncomfortable and I don't think I'm ever going to like it.
Alice:
I understand. There are people that feel that way like you and it's fine. For me it's my favorite part.
But I want to say I am an anomaly because I'm very good with crowds and commanding crowds because of my background as a musician. So I want to say that helps me. And I understand that you have to have witness control when you're doing cross, you have to have jury control when you're doing voir dire, otherwise it gets out of hand. So many people talking crazy stuff and you have to manage everybody and you really need to know how to control and direct.
You are being a director, you're being somebody that is directing the discussion and you really need to know how to cut people off, which is very uncomfortable to do, to give space for other people to talk as well. So it's hard. I agree with you.
Darl:
Tell us about your goals for let's say the next three to five years in terms of how you want to grow professionally, what you want to do with your trial skills. Anything that you have in mind?
Alice:
Yeah. So my goal, I want to be board certified in personal injury trial and civil trials. That's my goal.
Within the five years, I really want to just focus on only trial cases, not doing the depositions, the mediations anymore, and just being in trial full-time. And right now I don't have an associate that works with me, so I do all my depositions, all my mediations, all my client meetings in addition to the trial. So it's very challenging.
I like doing depositions. I think that's how you get to know your case and prepare for your case. But I really think an effective way to use my time, that's where a child is in trial. So I would like to just, in five years, just focus solely on trying cases and preparing for trial.
Darl:
It sounds like you need to hire an associate.
Alice:
I am. I'm looking actually for an associate and it's not going to be easy to find somebody that I trust. I have to have full trust for somebody to handle the depositions in the cases. So it wouldn't be like hiring somebody immediately handing over the keys to the canden. It would be a lot of training, a lot of spending time and training that person.
Probably it's going to take a whole year to train somebody to be able for me to fully trust to kind of like, "Okay, here is my docket, do all the depos. You get to do all the depos and come to trial with me as well." It's going to take at least a year to be able to build that trust. No because I don't trust people, it's just because it takes a lot to litigate a case.
Darl:
No, for sure, for sure.
And just kind of advice for you and advice for people listening, there's different schools of though on hiring an attorney. Some people think that it's better to hire people right out of law school because you don't have to worry about people having a set way of doing things. You get to train them your way. The kind of problem with that is they literally know nothing at first, and so you got to educate them and train them.
On the other end, if you get somebody with experience, they can hit the ground running, but they may not do it the way you want to do it. I'm not somebody that has rigid rules about a lot of stuff. I think it depends on the person.
I've hired excellent experienced attorneys. I've hired bad experienced attorneys. I've hired excellent people right out of law school. I've hired bad people right out of law school.
So I think identifying that and figuring that out is what do you want and what do you think is the best fit for you is the best way to go about that. Because then when you craft that ideal candidate, you can go out and find him or her.
Alice:
Yeah, that's actually good advice. Thank you. Because it is hard. I feel like we all have our background and experience. Even if they come out of law school, they have their life experience and people are who they are.
And you can only teach as long as somebody's willing to learn. So if you're not willing to learn something new or do the work, which takes a lot of time and dedication to learn something, learn a craft. If you just want to wing it and not learn and not do the work, then it doesn't matter the exposure and that you can have the best teacher, but if you don't do your part, it won't matter.
So I would take somebody that is willing to learn, even they don't... they might not be like, I was not an A student. I was a B, C student. I was not top of my class. I was bare minimum passing.
But I would take somebody that is willing to do the work, that is not that good grades, but willing to do the work as opposed to someone that is stellar law review student, but doesn't think so much of himself that doesn't think he needs to work hard.
Darl:
One of the questions I love asking people at the end is what their predictions are for the future of the personal injury industry.
We've undergone a lot of changes. There's talks about private equity, they're coming into some firms. There's this kind of growth of the mega firm. There's this proliferation of advertising, there's AI.
Do you have any predictions for what's going to happen in the near to long-term future?
Alice:
I think there's a lot of things happening with AI and technology and advancement of technology and the mega firms and private equity buying firms and all of that. And I understand what's happening, but I think my prediction is the firms that are going to survive and really thrive are not the ones that's going to be driven by AI or private equity of lots of money and all of that.
I think the firms that are going to survive are the ones that are customer service-based and driven by human connection. Because I think that's an important component that is missing from the big firms. It's that human connection. It's hear that voice on the phone of your lawyer telling you what's going on with their case and understanding and having the empathy and not seeing you as just a way to make money.
I think the firms that really have a client-centered focus and not a volume or money or settlements and big verdict center focus, I think those are the firms that are going to really do well in the future.
Darl:
I agree. I agree.
Alice:
Because this is missing. This is starting to get missing from our trial practice. The human component, it's becoming secondary to some of the lawyers. And that's the biggest complaints of the clients is not having the human interaction, hearing from their lawyer.
Darl:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that's something that I see a lot of when we take cases from some of these mega firms that the lawyer sometimes just drops the case because they couldn't get an easy check.
Sometimes the client fires the law firm. And when we dig through the files, it's sometimes kind of shocking what we see about just the lack of work. A lot of these firms are becoming marketing agencies.
Alice:
Oh yeah, 100%. I think if I had to give an advice for people that are starting out in personal injury, it's like if you're doing this for the money itself, yes, you are going to make a lot of money, but your clients are going to be unhappy because you're not doing it for the right reasons.
You need to remember why you're doing this in the first place. If you're a good lawyer, if you really care, put your client's interests first, you're going to get plenty of money. That's going to follow.
Darl:
I agree. Yeah, we ask that question of a lot of people. If they're already practicing personal injury law, what motivates you? Why do you do what you do? If people are looking to make the switch from the defense side to the plaintiff side, we ask the same question.
And sometimes you hear the answer of, "Oh, I want to make money." And that's an automatic disqualifier for us. It's not that we have a problem with people wanting to make money. Of course, people want to do well in life and afford things and support their family and their lifestyle, but when it's your main motivator, it kind of leads to a disconnect with the client.
Alice:
Oh yeah, 100%. That's not what drives me. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm very well paid. Javier pays me really well. I have no complaints about my compensation, but that's not what drives me. Our client base is 99% Hispanic, 99% Hispanic speakers and foreign and immigrants.
And for me to be able as an immigrant to help these people in the most vulnerable time of their lives where they have to be in front of strangers that they don't know, they're going to judge him because they don't speak English and because they look different because they have darker skin.
For me to be by their side, that's who I'm ultimating. To be their voice, that's what drives me. Use my skills, what I learn in my journey in the US to help these people. That's what really drives me.
Darl:
That's fantastic.
Well, Alice, thank you so much for joining us. Can you tell us where people can connect with you if they want to reach out to you and learn more about your firm or practice? Or maybe if they're out of state, maybe refer you a case?
Alice:
Yeah. So I'm on LinkedIn as Alice Lovchik, but it's spelled out Alice Lovchik. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm very active. I post several times a week.
You can also find me the same name on Instagram and on Facebook. I am very active on social media. I like to tell people what I'm doing, what's going on in my practice and all of that.
My firm's website is www.javiermarcos.com. Javier Marcos is my boss and the firm Marcos & Associates is a firm that I practice. You can find more information about what we do there. We take catastrophic injuries from small car crashes to catastrophic injuries. There's no case that's too small or too big for us. So we always work as local counsel for people out of state that need somebody in Houston.
Sometimes they have a case in Houston that need local counsel. We are very well known in all courts. We try cases in every single court in Harris County, Galveston, Fort Bend County, Montgomery County, all counties in Texas. So if you need a local counsel, somebody that knows how the court works in Texas, feel free to reach out to us. We help a lot of our fellow trial lawyers in the US.
Darl:
Excellent. Well, thank you, Alice, and thank you for everyone tuning into episode of the Championing Justice podcast. Please follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube so you can see and hear our latest episodes when they go live.